The Rachel Maddow show first premiered on MSNBC in 2008. Since then, Maddow has become the face of the network. The unconventional liberal political commentator isn’t afraid to share her raw emotions and motivations with the world. She calls herself an unlikely news host, among other things.
From a young age, she loved to shoot guns and could be found in her bedroom shaking her head vigorously to punk rock music, especially to the band The Dead Kennedy’s. Yes, it’s accurate to say that Rachel Maddow’s path to success was much different than the typical prime time news anchor. She may have done things in her own quirky way, but she still went after what she wanted and continues to do so to this day.
Rachel Maddow’s story is one that needs to be heard. Do you know how many jobs Rachel Maddow held before her big break came? The answer will surprise you and perhaps instill within you some hope.
How She Met Her Partner
In 2010, Rachel Maddow shared with People Magazine the story of how she met her partner, Susan Mikula. She called the meeting “very Desperate Housewives.” They didn’t meet in the more typical way you meet your significant other like through mutual friends, at a bar, or online. Rather, she met her longtime partner by chance.
The year was 1999 and Haddow had just moved to Massachusetts. She hired artist Susan Mikula to do work in her yard. Maddow has shared that it was love at first sight for the couple. And 20 years later, they are still going strong. Keep reading to find out where Mikula took Maddow on their first date.
The Unusual First Date
While most first dates usually take place over a glass of wine or cup of coffee, Rachel Maddow and Susan Mikula's date was anything but typical. They forewent the classic dinner and movie date and instead, took their date to a gun range, specifically, the "Ladies Day on the Range" event hosted by the National Rifle Association. This gave Mikula a chance to show off her shooting skills to Maddow. Despite Maddow being a liberal, the date surprisingly didn't ruin Mikula's chances with her.
In 2016, Maddow shared with CBS Sunday Morning “I think shooting ranges are an excellent place to both learn about guns and to freak your friends out." She has also confessed to enjoying shooting but nonetheless makes it a point to strongly support gun safety and gun control on her show.
Maddow Loved Punk Rock
Maddow has always been an attention seeker. When she was a teenager, she was a big fan of punk rock music. She adored The Dead Kennedy's and Husker Du. Her parents weren't such a big fan of her music choices and even punished her once after they found an album with a racy cover.
Maddow has shared that her affinity for bands like Meat Puppets and Black Flag was the “apex of my coolness.” Maddow has a lot of followers so not everybody would agree with that statement. Next, find out what Maddow does after work to stay sane.
She Loves Fishing
If Rachel Maddow ever went missing, you could almost be sure to find her fishing, particularly in the Hudson River. Rachel loves fishing so much that she's confessed to fishing in the Hudson River after midnight when her show is finished taping. According to her, there is no better smell than that of a clean river on a spring day. The biggest fish she's ever caught was “a striper that was two inches shorter than the one my mom caught ten minutes earlier.” There are some striped bass AKA striper fish that can grow to be about six feet.
Rachel Maddow has said "There are three things I do to stay sane: I exercise, I sleep – I'm a good sleeper – and I fish.
Outed by Her College Newspaper
Can you imagine being outed publicly before coming out to your family? Well, that's precisely what happened to Maddow. Before Rachel Maddow had come out to her parents, her college newspaper disclosed that she was gay. Somebody from the school sent the piece to Maddow's parents. They weren't too excited about the news, to say the least. Ultimately, they supported their daughter, who at the meantime was caught in an even bigger challenge. During the time that she was studying at Stanford, there were only two freshman-year students at Stanford who were openly gay. Maddow was one of them. She said, “the choice was; I’m not going to be a hypocrite. I’m going to have courage.” But at the time, this decision was harrowing. Now looking back on it, this decision helped shape Maddow's views and gave her a place to use her voice when others were lacking the courage.
Maddow likes to joke that she got into Stanford by mistake. However, her professors remember her otherwise. They recall Maddow as a serious scholar from the beginning. “She was a brilliant student,” says Roger Noll, former director of the Public Policy Program at Stanford, “one of those that only come around every few years or so.” Keep reading to find out about Maddow's Grammy nomination!
She Was Nominated for a Grammy
In 2012, Rachel Maddow released a spoken word album titled Drift: The Unmooring of American Military Power. The album discussed the role of the military in postwar American politics. Upon its release, Drift topped The New York Times Best Sellers list for hardcover nonfiction. Several months after the album's release, the audiobook version of the album was nominated for a Grammy Away for Best Spoken Word Album. Other nominees included Bill Clinton, Michelle Obama, Ellen DeGeneres, and Janis Ian.
While Maddow didn't win the award, it was nonetheless a huge honor to be nominated along with that prestige of talent. She was probably pretty thrilled to have received that nomination. Can you guess who won? It was Janis Ian who won the award for narrating her book Society's Child: My Autobiography.
A Dare Landed Her Her First Radio Gig
Before Maddow started working on television, she was a radio host. The way she got started on the radio, however, is a story in itself. The year was 1999 and Maddow was at a crossroads in her life. She wasn't sure what direction to take or what she wanted to do with her life. She was scrubbing out coffee barrels at a friend's coffee shop in Northampton when the local rock station announced it was holding an open audition for a "sidekick" for "Dave in the Morning." Her friend challenged her to try and Maddow was keen on the idea of a "new, odder job," she says.
Her friend shared that “we thought it might pay more than the minimum wage.” Maddow ended up landing the job and became the sidekick to the show's host, Dave Brinnel. She proceeded to fall in love with talk radio right away. At that point, she never would have known that this small radio gig would lead her to much bigger things down the road. Find out exactly what on the next page.
Her Big Break Came From Lizz Winstead
In 2004, a tape of Rachel Maddow on air was passed to producer Shelley Lewis. Lewis saw something special and decided to put her on-air with Lizz Winstead, the co-creator of The Daily Show. Lewis remembers about Maddow that “she had this incredible brightness of being. This sort of joy.” In just a few months, Maddow was already hosting The Rachel Maddow Show, a nationally broadcasted radio show. She was allotted three hours every day to tell stories and analyze politics.
She rose to popularity so much that she was subsequently given television appearances on CNN and afterward, MSNBC. So, how many jobs do you think Maddow had before she got her big break?
She's Had Her Fair Share of Odd Jobs
Who hasn't worked one or two odd jobs in their lives? Especially while growing up, it's common for people to work a number of jobs while they're supporting themselves through school or trying to figure out what they want to do with their lives. Rachel Maddow's career course followed similarly and there were little things left untried by her. When she came back from London to finish her dissertation, she settled down in Massachusetts because it was far away from home and free of distractions. To support herself, she took up a number of odd jobs. “I was a waitress, bike messenger, bucket washer at a coffee-bean factory, yard help, landscaping laborer, handyman.” She estimates that she worked what seemed like 200 jobs before she landed the radio gig.
So, what do you think was the worst job of them all for her? She says that the worst of them all was a gig she had going on at a recycling center. She was responsible for driving a flatbed truck around and picking up recycling bins from office buildings. Because of that experience, Maddow has become questionable about the benefits of recycling.
She Battles Depression
Rachel Maddow has been very open about her cyclical depression, but this wasn't always the case. She opened up about the condition in 2012 when she shared the personal information with Rolling Stone. She confessed that it sometimes impacts her on-air performance because it causes her to lose focus and clarity in her thinking. In the same interview she gave to Rolling Stone, she labeled herself a failure saying “I see my job as making a TV show. I fail at it. Constantly. And that’s all I can think about.”
She shared that she doesn't feel it takes away from her joy or work or energy, but that coping with depression is something that is part of her everyday life. When asked why she chose to spoke about it in an interview, she shared "It was a hard call...Because it was nobody's business. But it had been helpful to me to learn about the people who were surviving, were leading good lives, even though they were dealing with depression. So I felt it was a bit of a responsibility to pay that back." There is somebody in her life that helps pull her out of her times of darkness and guide her to a place of comfort. See who that light is on the next page.
Mikula Helps Her Recognize Her Feelings
A lot of people have that one person that they can turn to that will help lift them up out of their cloud of darkness encompassing them. For Rachel Maddow, that person is Susan Mikula. Whenever Maddow begins to feel down on herself, Mikula is able to lighten up her mood. Maddow has shared that the hardest part for her about having depression is not even realizing when she's depressed. Mikula helps Maddow see when she's falling into a dark hole by telling her "you're depressed."
Maddow says that just by reminding her that she has depression is enough to make Maddow feel more positive about the situation. Maddow has said that “just being able to identify it, and then knowing that it’s not gonna be forever and that it will pass and that it will ease at some point helps.”
The Horrible First Impression at MSNBC
A lot of people make bad first impressions the first day on a job and Rachel Maddow is no exception. During her first televised edition of the Rachel Maddow Show, she wanted to acknowledge the show's crew at a launch party. She was inspired to motivate the troops and unify them so she decided to deliver a speech on new beginnings. She babbled to the crew, telling them to forget everything they had learned up until now.
The speech wasn't as inspirational as Maddow thought it would be. There were pale faces all around and she caused the entire party to become speechless. So yeah, not exactly the best start for her. Bill Wolf, the show's producer, said that it took the crew around a year to understand Maddow's intentions and her vision. While we know that her workmates had mixed feelings about her in the beginning, how do you think audiences felt? Let's see in the next slide.
Her Show Doubled its Audience in One Month
The Rachel Maddow Show took over the time slot of The Verdict in 2008 and instantly gained worldwide fame. After only one month into its run, the show was able to double its audience from the time of its premiere. Sometimes dubbed “America’s wonkiest anchor,” Maddow's show reached another career achievement in 2017 when during the week of May 15th, the show became the highest rated non-sports program on cable.
Rachel Maddow is a clear example that you don't need to change who you are to be successful. Sometimes being different pays off. Check out the next slide to see how Rachel Maddow dresses for the show. It will surprise you!
She Likes to be Comfortable
Rachel Maddow doesn't care much for fashion and dressing up and she definitely isn't about to conform to anybody's standards of how a news host should dress. When she's on-air and sitting behind a desk, you might think that she looks nice from the top up but what you don't know is that she's in comfortable jeans and Converse shoes behind the desk. She once talked about her on-screen look, comparing it to a mullet, “it’s business upstairs, party downstairs.”
Well, she's definitely not the only television personality to pull this move off. Sean Hannity confessed to GQ in 2011 that he also wears jeans behind the desk. I guess those comfortable clothes are something that both liberals and conservatives can agree on. Keep reading to find out how Maddow feels about makeup.
Sho Doesn't Like Wearing Makeup
On television, Maddow might be wearing lipstick and makeup but says she does it begrudgingly. Maddow describes herself as so: “I’m not a TV anchor babe. I’m a big lesbian who looks like a man.” And if you have a problem with her blazers, she defends them by saying that they're “lady clothes.” Actually, there is somebody in Maddow's life who does encourage her to wear makeup and that's her partner, Susan Mikula. She says that without it, “she looked like a dead person.” Susan is also happy to offer up her wardrobe advice.
Despite Maddow receiving offers for expensive wardrobes, high heels, and anything else that would make most girls feel like princesses, Maddow turns them down. When she comes to work every day in her comfy and baggy clothes, she wishes that she could stay like that at work. But, she knows that she has to make some compromises, like putting on some nicer "lady clothes" and wearing some makeup.
She Once Got a Medical Procedure Done On Air
While Maddow worked as a host on the radio show, she agreed to some pretty outrageous things. One of those things involved getting laser eye surgery while hosting the program. The radio station probably regretted this when Maddow said: “I can smell my eyes burning.” Needless to say, they cut to commercial.
It's a good thing that her experimental programming didn’t go very far. Could you imagine if The Rachel Maddow Show and Howard Stern were to mesh into one? It wouldn't be caught dead on MSNBC. Next, read the story of Maddow’s unlikely relationship with Batwoman.
Maddow Reinvents Batwoman
In 2010, Batwoman: Elegy was released. The comic was a dramatic re-imaging of Batwoman as a gay woman kicked out from the military for having an affair with another woman. Rachel Maddow was the creative mind behind the introduction for the hardcover version of the story. She did this as a favor for her friend, Dan Choi.
The story is based on Choi’s own life experience, who received a discharge letter from the Army following his coming out on The Rachel Maddow Show. Choi makes a cameo in the comic, and Maddow was eager to contribute to the introduction.
Her Taste in Music Has Really Changed
While most people put on some upbeat music to get them pumped and motivated to work out, Maddow finds inspiration in another style of music. You won't find Rihanna on this woman's workout playlist. Instead, and surprisingly, her workout playlist is mostly "tear-in-your-beer country music.”
It seems like she's no longer in her punk rock days, which her parents are probably happy about. She's swapped her leather jacket for a pair of spurs. She says she listens to harder music in order to get through elections. During the 2014 midterm elections, she revealed a playlist including Bad Brains, Fugazi, and Black Flag.
Her Best Friends Are Conservatives
In 2016, Maddow shared with Us Weekly that a few of her best friends work for Fox News. She joked saying "don't tell anyone!" Her connection to Fox News doesn't end there, though.
In college, she met Roger Ailes, a Fox News correspondent. She approached Ailes, seeking his technical advice to help her advance her career. Maddow won't share what the advice was but she has said: "It was a nice thing that he did for me, and it’s been valuable for me.”
The Historic Rhodes Scholar
After she parted ways from Stanford following her graduation, she was awarded two scholarships for the continuation of her studies and to pursue a doctorate. She was offered both the Marshall Scholarship and the Rhodes Scholarship. She accepted the Rhodes Scholarship and with that, became the first openly gay person to accept the award.
Maddow has confessed that at Oxford, she felt restless and out of place. A few months into the program, she decided to put her doctorate on hold, swap her Oxford apartment for a London squat and became the general manager of a developing organization called the AIDS Treatment Project.
She Co-Hosted A Love Songs Call-In Show
Rachel Maddow has become a voice for liberals around the country and the liberal media, but getting to the top wasn't an easy feat. Before she started her own show, she worked in some pretty interesting and unconventional jobs.
“I once had a very short-lived moonlighting job hosting a gay love songs call-in show with a co-host named Martini,” she shared with US Weekly in November 2015. Ironically enough, she is now able to protest for LGBTQ rights on her political show. So, it seems like things have come full circle in a way.
She Only Wears Grey And Black Suits
As you should know by now, Maddow has no desire to wear suits, but she makes some sacrifices for her show, at least from the waist up. Have you noticed that she is usually sporting a grey or black suit with hints of grey? Well, there's a reason for that.
Many other female prime-time news hosts spend hours choosing their wardrobe carefully, doing their hair and makeup and getting ready for the news show. Maddow chooses to go a different route so as not to distract from the news and ideas that she's presenting.
She told NY Mag, “If I’m wearing a gray suit, people aren’t going to talk about what I’m wearing. Therefore, I will wear a gray suit every time I go on television. That was sort of the plan.” Her partner, Mikula, shares a bit more information, “At some point, we figured out that you could wear suits and they could be gray, or gray, or brown or black or gray.”
Maddow Never Watches Cable New Shows
While she's one of the biggest names in cable news, she actually doesn't watch that sort of television herself. When asked what shows she watched on TV, she confessed that she never watches the type of shows that she hosts.
She shared with NY Mag that she has never watched a single episode of “Hannity & Colmes, or Larry King, or The O’Reilly Factor.” There's a reason why her show feels so different from others and that's because she isn't attempting to imitate anybody or follow in somebody else's footsteps. She is her own person through and through. Because she doesn't watch her competition, she is able to take risks which are completely her own.
Only One Guest At a Time, Please
Maddow has one guest at a time rule for interviews and political insights. She made this one guest at a time policy when she first started her show so as to prevent herself from being a "referee" to squabbling pundits. “You’re essentially watching for the kinetic activity of the fight rather than listening to what anybody says about the issue,” she says of the multi-guest format that many cable news shows adopt. Maddow instead wants to hone in on genuine conversations with her guests and make way for a more insightful approach that her fans can relate to.
She is also not a fan of impoliteness. When she was a guest on Dan Abram's show, Pat Buchanan told Democratic strategist Kelli Goff to “shut up." Maddow, immediately she jumped in to politely scold Pat. She told him “Pat! I have never heard you tell anyone to shut up like that before!” The former Nixon speechwriter looked pretty humiliated. “Even though I can be harsh in my criticism and I can be strong in my beliefs, I try not to be mean,” she says. “And I don’t have a very high tolerance for other people who are cruel or personally insulting in a way that I think is meant to humiliate people.”
Maddow Decides on The Topics She Covers
If you tune in to the Rachel Maddow Show, you will be watching whatever Rachel is interested in covering and not something that MSNBC assigned for her to cover. She picks her own topics of discussion and decides how she wants to cover those topics.
“I get to decide what we cover. From the very beginning, I’ve had a deal with MSNBC that they don’t tell me what to cover, what not to cover or how to cover what I cover,” she shared with Rolling Stone. Maddow says that she chooses stories not on the basis of pleasing others but in order to bring to light topics that are important.
She Got More Viewers After Trump's Election
Trump's chaotic presidency has helped boost cable ratings across the board. But, the program that has benefited the most is Rachel Maddow's show. Her audience has tripled, from 849,000 nightly viewers in 2014 to over 3 million in 2018.
Her show is second only to the NBA playoffs as the most-watched program on cable. Her show has taken resonance during the Trump era when one of his tweets can receive endless coverage by the press and journalism is called "fake news."
Trump's Not a Fan
It's no news to anybody that Trump has the tendency to hate on news media and call them "fake news." He's referring to journalists, including Maddow. During one episode of her show, Maddow revealed Trump's 2005 tax documents. After that episode, Trump interviewed with Fox News, calling Maddow and her team "Bad People." “They leaked them,” he said. “It’s illegal to do what they did, I think.” After the interview aired, people criticized Maddow for exaggerating the tax document for 20 minutes before revealing it to viewers. Those who are fans of Maddow blasted her for making Trump look good as the tax documents showed that he made a generous tax contribution for his high income.
During an interview with Rolling Stone, Maddow was asked if she feels like she oversold the story. Her response was "I felt like I did exactly what I wanted to do. You can’t really do any worthwhile work if you’re hoping for a specific response from people. This is what I do and some people like it and some people don’t, and some days you’re up and some days you’re down in terms of whether people think you’re a good person or a bad person."
"A Master of the Medium"
While Maddow may have landed her career in an ironic way, it is clear that she has a natural talent for hosting her news show, a talent that doesn't come so easily to others.
MSNBC host Chris Hayes told Rolling Stone, “No one can do what she does. She is a master of the medium in a way that is just unparalleled. And she does that every night. To produce what she produces every day is really incomprehensible to me, really.”
Maddow Has an Impressive Collections of Awards
Maddow's years of hard work as a news host and media personality has won her some impressive awards over the years. Some of her biggest awards include a Gracie Award in 2009 which was presented by the American Women in Radio and Television. In 2010, she won the Walter Cronkite Faith & Freedom Award, which was presented by the Interfaith Alliance. Past winners have included Larry King, Tom Brokaw, and the late Peter Jennings. In 2010, she also won at the 21st Annual GLAAD Media Awards in the category of outstanding TV journalism for her segment, "Uganda Be Kidding Me."
In 2011, she won her first Emmy award. In 2012, she was presented the John Steinbeck Award by the Martha Heasley Cox Center for Steinbeck Studies. Finally, in 2017, she once again won two Emmy Awards and her show also won two. And you can expect Maddow to continue winning awards, thanks to her impressive ratings and religious following.
Maddow's ‘Very Catholic’ and ‘Ultra-Conservative’ Background
Maddow has shared that her family is very Catholic and that she grew up in a conservative community. She says she grew up in a staunch household. Because of her parents' religious beliefs, Maddow's coming out was especially difficult, particularly for her mom.
She has since resumed good relations with her parents and they are close again. They are very supportive of her and are also close to her partner Susan.
Maddow's Beef With a Few Fact-Checking Websites
If you want to start thinking that Maddow is in support of the Trump "fake news," she is fighting for something different. Several times, Maddow has criticized the fact-checking website PolitiFact for their attempts to discredit her comments using Whataboutisms.
In 2013, Maddow made the following statement about PolitiFact: “They fact-checked a statement about state law, found it to be true, decided it didn’t seem seemly or whatever to actually just call it true, then they searched other unrelated information about how there are other kinds of things, besides states, like some companies, they don’t want to discriminate, and doesn’t that count for something?”
Her First Date With Her Partner Was an NRA Event
While Maddow has attacked the National Rifle Association (NRA) many times on her MSNBC show, she actually has a positive memory from one of the organization's events. Her first date with her partner, Mikula, was actually an NRA event.
“My first date with Susan was at an NRA ‘Ladies Day On The Range’ event, and that is as close as I have ever gotten to the NRA,” she told The Huffington Post.
She Eats All her Three Meals at the Same Location
Rachel Maddow needs to put all of her free time towards working on her popular cable TV news program. So, she barely ever steps away from her desk as she meets producers and other members of her staff. Maddow is so busy that she eats all of her meals at her desk from Monday through Friday. “I eat three meals a day at my desk if I eat three meals a day. If I eat two meals a day, they’re both at my desk. All of my meals are at my desk,” she told The Hollywood Reporter.
In an interview with Katie Couric, Maddow shared that what drives her is fear of failure. She said "It's not that I believe a segment will be better because I read those extra 20 pages. It's because I'm worried that if I don't, I'll say something wrong. It's negative motivation, which makes for a high-stress atmosphere."
She Loves Tackling New Projects
Maddow spends most of her time on the Rachel Maddow Show, but she also likes to take on new projects in the spare time she has. In October 2018 she modestly launched her Podcast series “Bag Man.” The podcast focuses on the story of former U.S. President Spiro Agnew who stepped down after pleading no contest to tax evasion. The podcast made it to the #1 spot on iTunes.
Another project she undertook was the documentary special “Betrayal.” This documentary covered the darker side of the 1968 election, showing how then-candidate Richard Nixon seemed willing to collaborate with a foreign government to win the Presidency.
The Guest She Eagerly Wants to Interview
Maddow dedicated her book “Drift: The Unmooring of American Military Power” to former U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney. At the beginning of her book, she writes to Cheney: “To former vice president Dick Cheney. Oh please let me interview you.”
A spokeswoman for Maddow shared with the NY Daily News that Maddow dedicated her book to Cheney because “he’s right at the center of what I write about.” On several occasions, Maddow has said that Cheney is her dream guest.
She Often Sacrifices Sleep
Maddow and her partner Susan Mikula, have confessed that Maddow has difficulty knowing when it's time to stop working for the day. She is so passionate about her work that she rarely gets the sleep that she needs. “Rachel has always worked really, really hard. She works constantly.” Mikula told NY Mag. “I have been a suicidal, stretched-too-thin, overcommitted, frenetic, sleepless mess for the entire time she has known me,” Maddow replied. She’s said in other interviews that it’s incredibly hard for her to find time to sleep, and jokingly puts it off. “I am a husk of my former self. I’m planning to sleep for all of 2019. Or maybe 2020. As soon as I’m caught up with everything, I’ll sleep!”
Rachel has always worked really, really hard,” says Susan Mikula, Maddow’s partner, over a late-night dinner of pasta and pink Champagne at Centro in the West Village. “She works constantly. And not just busy work but really hard work.”
She Likes Being Androgynous
Maddow is the first openly gay woman to host a prime-time news show. But, she doesn't want this to be her title. She told NY Mag, “I’ve been out most of my life. I don’t feel like I have a choice about it. I look gay.” Maddow has long prided herself on her androgynous appearance; early in her radio career, the hosts at her morning show once took her out on the street. As a stunt, they wanted to have people passing by guessing her gender.
When she started her career, Maddow kept her wardrobe androgynous. Her partner Mikula said, “At some point, we figured out that you could wear suits and they could be gray, or gray, or brown or black or gray.”
Maddow Loves Massachusetts
After working in London on the AIDS Treatment Projects, Maddow returned home to the U.S. She decided to settle down in Massachusetts. “I wanted to live somewhere where I would be forced to do what I had to do,” she told NY Mag.
She enjoys living there because she feels like she and Susan can be themselves. Maddow shared, “We live in western Mass and New York and it’s very accommodating. Every once and a while I’ll say, ‘Oh my God, we’re gay.’”
“Unlikely” Seems to be the Theme of Her Life
Maddow recognizes that she is many firsts. For this reason, people often view her as an unconventional person because of the path she's chosen. After hearing herself described countless times as “unlikely” she decided to make it her own. She told NY Mag, “Yeah, I’m the unlikely cable news host. But before that, I was the unlikely Rhodes scholar. And before that, I was the unlikely kid who got into Stanford. And then I was the unlikely lifeguard. You can always cast yourself as unlikely when you’re fundamentally alienated in your worldview. It’s a healthy approach for a commentator.”
Maddow seems as surprised as anyone by her success. “It’s like winning an ego lottery,” she says. She also finds it pretty funny that anyone could think she’s cool. “I’m such an old man! Maybe it’s geek chic, I don’t know.”